Dialing in Marketing Performance Dashboards

[00:00:00]

Jake: Tim Shea, welcome to What Gets Measured. How are you, sir?

Tim Shea: I'm doing great, Jake. Thanks so much for having me.

Jake: I almost forgot where I was. I'm just in a Zoom with my friend, you know? No, it's a podcast. Um, so I thank you for finding time. I wanted to start just with a background, your story, data and marketing dashboards. I mean, not everybody looks at these things.

You know, even the marketers. Um, so give us like a short story, your elevator pitch. Set the scene, what drove you to focus on data and dashboard specifically

Tim Shea: hundred percent man. Uh, Jake, I've been a, um, I've been a software engineer for almost 25 years. I've

Jake: that explains it.

Tim Shea: Yeah. That, that's, that explains a lot actually. And, uh, I've had a long winding career in advertising. I actually was working in sales at one point. I was selling someone else's data platforms into media agencies selling media on the streets of New York City. um, you know, had this wild experience where I was, I, I, this guy goes, Hey, listen. He goes, Tim, I love this data [00:01:00] platform. That you're trying to sell to us. But here's the problem. got like 10 other data platforms that do slightly different versions of what you're talking about. So we're gonna pass.

We actually don't even have time to log into all these platforms. Right. And I remember at the time being like, oh, no, no, no. Even though we're a SaaS company, we, we'll, we'll help you with a managed service. We'll download all the reports for you. We'll do the cross platform storytelling for you. um, you know, the, like, security is like dragging you outta the building at that point.

And I throw you on the, the, the sidewalk and New York. And I remember, you know, standing up and dusting myself off and, and looking at all these big giant skyscrapers in New York and being like, oh. That's, that's the insight is that like these companies need to build this lattice work. They need to. Build a system to automate this, you know, pulling data out of 20 different, you know, systems, sales systems, marketing systems, CRM systems, and they need to have a team that can do the insights, that can like, do cross platform storytelling and, you know, [00:02:00] help them see their business in a new way through the new lens. And so that was the story nine years ago, eight years ago when I started the company. And what's wild is it's still the exact same story today as companies got data stuck in. 20, 30, 40 different platforms and

Jake: Right.

Tim Shea: you know, it's a big nightmare for them.

Jake: Yeah. And, and, and that thing, um, there's 10 different things that sound exactly the same. You know, I think that sort of added to the SAS apocalypse, um, you know, a bit, what's that differentiation? I mean, what you said was engineering, what, what I think of lattice work is like an engineering partner, and I, I, I, I wonder what you said.

Things haven't changed. The conversation hasn't. But what was true when you started and what is no longer true?

Tim Shea: Well, you mentioned SA apocalypse. I mean, the, the number of MarTech platforms has gone up like 10 x

Jake: Yo, you've seen the Loom Escape. Scott Brinker's Loo [00:03:00] Escape. Right?

Tim Shea: dude. I print 'em out, I would put 'em on the wall, but you can't see all the logos on them. They're too, the logos are too small.

Jake: need a jeweler's lens. Yeah.

Tim Shea: And so, you know, it's very hard to be an expert in all 15,000 of those platforms. Uh, how do you build, uh, software that can accommodate all of them? Uh, more and more and more, even in the era of AI is what people are looking for is leadership.

Jake: Hmm.

Tim Shea: A lot of, a lot of companies, maybe they have already built some modern data stack. They've already built the data pipelines and the models

Jake: Right.

Tim Shea: uh, and companies bring us in and they're like, look, you know, we got a bunch of people here who, um, marketing doesn't know when to call the data team and the data team, they show up to these marketing meetings who want to talk about all these nerdy crap and no one wants to hear it. So the data folks, right, have got to acquire the sort of finesse and vocabulary to be

Jake: Hmm.

Tim Shea: to these executive meetings to be able to provide leadership and, and marketing needs to know when to leverage data and what scenarios is it, is it good? When are they gonna use their instincts? when should they [00:04:00] ask for a dashboard?

When should they ask for something custom? These are very, very hard questions in 2026, and AI really is just making things more complicated for them.

Jake: Yeah. And so, I mean that's, that's the next question is about that AI and analytics. I mean, you just said, you know, me and you, if you've been in this game a long time, you'll remember big data when everybody was talking about big data. Um, now you got ai, which is really just like good software that does stuff.

That's kind of what I call it. Um, still is, but it's changing. It's moving. It kind of does feel like a new ball game. My question is, what do you think AI has provided for marketing analytics long term, and what do you think it's preventing us from doing in the short term?

Tim Shea: Yeah, I mean, I think you could run the whole podcast just on this one question alone, right? I think like

Jake: I know it's a big one.

Tim Shea: It's a big one. I mean, in many ways I think AI is producing maybe bad software and bad outcomes, and I think in, in, um, in many cases it's a [00:05:00] multiplier of what you've got internally.

Jake: Sure.

Tim Shea: got, you know, these unicorns internally, the unicorns can be 10 x more unicorny, right?

If you've got a bunch of average folks in house, right? All of a sudden it's like, uh, someone made the analogy of like asbestos or like caulk, you know, you kind of have a crack in, in the thing and it kind

Jake: Sure.

Tim Shea: up. Yeah. And so people are producing these, you know, AI generated reports and it's just filler. There's nothing in 'em. You know, as they talk about Uncanny Valley, people don't wanna read a report generated by ai. It's, there's nothing, there are no insights

Jake: What's so sad is, is knowing what we know in the dashboard game. Not a lot of people look at 'em anyway, you know? They look at you. They look at 'em when they want to yell at you, and then they don't know what they're looking at. You know? So that's why I'm saying we could unfold that. But yes, I agree with that.

Software is cranking out. Did you need it? It reminds me of the app era. Everyone says we need an app. Do you

Tim Shea: to do what?[00:06:00]

Jake: to, to, and then do you wanna, um, maintain apps? That's, it's not that you don't want it, but can you maintain it? And so maybe there's a bit of that maintenance. I wanna go back to something you said.

Um, we landed on the app thing. Data stewardship, the data types. Um, they need more, what, you know, market marketability and the marketing people need more data skills. Talk to us in the room right now. Say you have some data people on one side of the room and you got some marketers over there. Like what, what is your TED talk advice to the room?

Like how, I mean, 'cause the data, people are like, what do you mean? I'm just in these models, I'm just in these math. And then the marketers are like, sales is breathing down my neck. If it, if it doesn't have to do with the pipeline, I'm not talking about it. So how do you get, be a marriage counselor right now?

Tim Shea: I, I mean, look, I think in like 100% of, uh, clients' meetings that I'm in, there's this problem of like, can we agree that, you know, [00:07:00] today is Wednesday. Right? Like, can, can we, can we, can we all, can we all coalesce around the idea that we're all trying to increase LTV? Are we trying to increase

Jake: Do you like that?

Tim Shea: Are we trying to like shorten time to second purchase?

Jake: we doing here? You know?

Tim Shea: doing

Jake: Yeah.

Tim Shea: so I think, you know, LTV is a great, maybe like, um, a kind of straw man, right? People say, well, what is our LTV? Like, we think our LTV is a hundred. And I'm like, I don't need to know anything about your company. I guarantee you it's not a hundred. It's not a hundred. And the reason I know that is because some vendor put the number on screen and I know it's actually three answers.

It's not one answer. And I know that the answer is not really, uh, we can't include people that, uh, bought in the last two months. We can't include people that we gave a 50% discount to over Black Friday. And they're like. Are, are we, are there different types of people that buy like multiple times every week?

And some people buy a ton of stuff like once a year. Like, can we be honest that there's multiple types of customers? So this is not really a conversation around, is LTV 105 or is it 96? Like it's [00:08:00] multiple things. LTV is not a number, it is a story. And so, you know, we want to help people rally around their true north metrics and

Jake: Love that.

Tim Shea: matters is getting the, the big LTV customers from 120 to 130, 'cause we predict that it maybe that's where their their is ceiling is. Let's talk about how, what the marketing is doing to move those numbers. Did the thing that we did do, did the thing that we did last week actually move the needle? That seems like a fair question that we can all, you know, coalesce around.

Jake: And time was another thing, like how do you measure LTV, you know, in, in a similar way, it seems like a lot of measurements are frozen in time and. Most people don't think about that. They're looking at that dashboard, like it's a, a, like it's a pulse monitor in a hospital. You know what I mean? And you're like, hold on.

Now. How, how, how do you get people to sort of widen. Their [00:09:00] temporal ability to measure things because what you said, if it didn't work last week, scrap it. But that's not a hundred percent true. There could be things that are working on three month, six month increments, add groups that need to run a bit to get some steam and, and if you have somebody who's like, I'm looking at this, like it's the pulse.

How do you separate statistics from pulses?

Tim Shea: Oh yeah, and absolutely. I mean, I think, look, in retail and D two C, they say, you know, 80% of customers never come back. Right. It's sort of like State of the Union, so you know 20% of your customers will return. lion's share of them don't care. They didn't like your product. They're fickle, and you're under extreme pressure on Black Friday to drive revenue.

And so everyone is offering 20, 30, 50% off. so there's a big question as to whether, did you just steal sales from October and December? To boost your numbers in November and are those people not coming back again until next year? Did you just attract a lot of [00:10:00] Unloyal customers were you profitable on those people?

You said like, so we did, we did. We did 30 million in sales on Black Friday, and you're like, was the profit margin decimated by all this marketing activity that we did? How long will it take to pay off? That, that, that c debt, uh, are we gonna spend the next two quarters paying off all the debt that we accumulated during Black Friday?

Jake: you go.

Tim Shea: these are extremely illuminating questions

Jake: I love that.

Tim Shea: Hey, this, this, this, uh, this chart that's going up and down on the dashboard. I'm like, guess what? It's gonna go up again and it's gonna go down again, and it's gonna go up again. But can we agree that we gotta stop giving 50% off on Black Friday?

Like maybe that's what we should be, uh, rallying around.

Jake: Well, and that's why I think it's important that long-term benefit of using AI to look at analytics, amazing short-term stuff, you have to be much more cognizant of it. 'cause those are the more pressing questions. What's happening now? What's happening now? I love that you are thinking of debt, um, of action.[00:11:00]

What, what? Where'd that come from? I mean, obviously you're working with the N-B-A-U-F-C Pepsi, Reddit, but did that come from hard experience or did you have a sense from all of that experience you had before that that helped you kind of tighten this?

Tim Shea: Yeah, I mean, I think domain expertise is like the biggest thing,

Jake: Mm.

Tim Shea: you know, like domain expertise is the new oil. Everyone, the big data is the new oil. And like, let's just be honest, like, leadership is like more important than how much data you have in house.

Jake: Wow.

Tim Shea: Um, you know, I, I think as a, uh, as a software engineer.

We are trained to think of like things are right and wrong. We are trained to like go for the, well actually, you know, let, let me

Jake: Love that.

Tim Shea: that I'm maybe like the smartest person in the room. well, in, in, in reality a lot of companies struggle with things that you are not expecting. Uh, but pick any customer, uh, on my portfolio.

They are all snowflakes. [00:12:00] One of them is selling on drops. One of them is crushing it in store in retail. them sells subscription.

Jake: Mm.

Tim Shea: so to come in and say, oh, you gotta have a uh, LTVC ratio of three to one, like, that's the determining factor in your business. And they're like, no, no, no, no. no, no.

Hold on. We, we spent 10 years building this business, Tim, it's act. What we found is, is X, Y, and Z. And so being in the room with a lot of those conversations allows me to walk into a brand new company and show up with some humility and also a lot of, you know, uh, battle scar and, and knowledge.

Jake: Like you're not shying away from these conversations. Is that some of the advice, go back to that room where the data people and the marketing people are here, is that some of that advice, um, that you might hand over to them is, is the scars or important and you have to. Push yourself to be in positions where you maybe are challenging or, I don't know.

I mean, [00:13:00] because I thought what you were saying was really interesting. I wanna prove that I'm the smartest person in the room. I think it's something I wanna prove that I'm not the dumbest, maybe that's what's really like, that's the engine behind people. You know, that you think you might be smart, but what you're actually trying to do is not look dumb.

And I think. What's the advice for people? 'cause the data fools are like, I have the proof of how to not be dumb. The marketing people are like, I can dance my way through any hurricane. What, what's your advice on them in the way that you've had to have challenging conversations where you had to sit people down and say, yo, look, this works for you.

It might not work for you.

Tim Shea: Sure.

Jake: Do you know what I mean?

Tim Shea: Yeah, yeah, sure. Uh, I think, yeah, asking really dumb questions is like a great way to get people to disarm a little

Jake: No one wants to do that. Why don't they want to do that? Because that, because it sounds dumb, doesn't it, Tim?

Tim Shea: no, no one looks dumb. I think there, there's an art of asking dumb questions in a room to get people to then say, [00:14:00] well, actually, Tim, that's a good question. I've been reading the Wall Street Journal and we're being gaslit to think that AI is the solution to all of these problems.

Tim, you're on the outside. on the outside, like, what are you actually seeing with regards to ai? I am like, well, I'm actually seeing that, you know, 90, 95, a hundred percent of AI initiatives fail. They die on the vine and people are burning cash on these initiatives. And unless they have AI experts to come in and build these, you know, solutions for them, uh, everything that you are reading in the Wall Street Journal is not going to come to fruition.

And so, you know, I'll come in and be like, Hey guys. Um, have you guys been playing with Chachi PT at all? Has it given you any good ideas? Have you guys found any initial ways of potentially using AI in your business where you're selling to customers in a store where there is clothing on a rack? Is there AI in the store with them, like helping them along the way?

Don't you think it's a little bit odd that maybe this is a premature. Technology to be putting in here. Could we, could we maybe go back to the, uh, how, how are we doing [00:15:00] versus Black Friday? Like, could we maybe go back to those questions might seem more pertinent than, uh, which, which agentic framework for them to use.

Jake: Right. And I mean, and that's the other thing about AI and expertise. It goes onto this next question. Um, if people are thinking, oh yeah, I can just, I mean, earlier we said, the reason why you're not gonna get what you want from a off the shelf, LLM Ninja Cat just did some original research. 54% of marketing leaders that we asked in this user evidence, you know, survey said that 54% said they're using off the shelf AI for analytics.

I mean off the shelf, not even on an instance inside the platforms. So I was like. You know, I'm, you talk about a jagged edge 'cause I've seen people use it when they have this lattice tight, when they have their data management on, when you're connected to it. It's a different thing, you [00:16:00] know? So, but how giving, uh, so what about that stupid question in regards to maybe popping a bubble on hype, popping a bubble on R-O-I-R-O-A-S, do you think that's the best measurement?

Maybe not for this. What, uh, what's your advice on just general, how do you get a dumb question through without looking dumb, just generally I think that would be really valuable.

Tim Shea: I just really want to understand like what it's like for them for like a, a super smart CEO or COO at like a 20 person company that's growing like crazy. They're making 10, 20, 50, a hundred million dollars in revenue. You gotta understand

Jake: Like it's

Tim Shea: being a founder. And they only

Jake: access to certain

Tim Shea: and they're, they're, they're dying for information outside of their organization.

So I come in like really humble and wanna understand what's working for them, what's

Jake: thought where there's

Tim Shea: are. A

Jake: a lot of their.

Tim Shea: You mentioned roas. You know, uh, we, we

Jake: All to talk

Tim Shea: uh, return [00:17:00] on advertising spend. I come in, I'm like, listen,

Jake: about.

Tim Shea: Is not necessarily a cost center. It should be creating revenue for you guys.

There should be a sense of return on analytics spend. there

Jake: There should be a.

Tim Shea: that when you go to the data team, they are providing you a new lens on the business. They're reframing things in a new way so that you see growth opportunities, that you see that there are efficiencies that you are overlooking, that there is water's leaking out of the vase.

Like let's,

Jake: Tons.

Tim Shea: these holes. So I think there should be a real sense that, you know, when you invest a dollar in analytics, that you're making $2 back or $10 back. In the same way that you spend on marketing, you expect a return on that marketing spend.

Jake: Ah, so, and I had Malcolm Hawker, uh, on the pot a while ago. He's this big chief data, big wig guy, wrote a book about data leadership and, and one of his thoughts was, could you sell the data? Could you put a price sticker on data? [00:18:00] Because if you can't, what's it worth? You know? And I was like, damn, because.

Data professionals may be marketing professionals too. Think education is the problem. They just need to know about how marketing works, about how data works. And to that point about the CEO, just being lonely and being like, huh, you think I need to learn how marketing works? You think I need, I have time.

To learn how data works. I'm, I hired y'all to help me and you are saying that my education level is the problem. Uh oh, no. How do you sell it? So, and that's where, what you said about AI and being a profit place where you can unlock optimizations. I was thinking AI and expertise, if anybody can create the dashboard themselves, they can just do a dashboard, whatever.

How do we as marketers bring value to these dashboards? Like when you're saying new [00:19:00] lenses, how do you get people, you know, primed to see that? What's, what's the role of expertise in ai?

Tim Shea: Uh, you're asking a great question. Um, I, one thing I've learned, uh, selling latticework insights selling services over the last decade is you gotta make it really easy for people to buy. And so people have never invested in a data science agency. They've never invested in a company like mine before. And so I'm like, look, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna make it really easy for you.

We are literally gonna sell small, medium, and large. We call it, uh, light basic and advanced. And they're like, I don't know what that means. I'm like, listen, I have a three month blueprint for how we sell. But I'm gonna tell you, Jake, you guys are not ready for that yet. think you guys are at the light stage, and what I'm gonna do in the light stage is in two to four weeks, I'm gonna take a look at all your data and we're gonna deliver one asset for you. gonna show you and your stakeholders one thing that's interesting, one new way to look at your company, one new dashboard or a [00:20:00] new data pipeline, something that you look at and you say, oh. is kind of interesting. Let me go rally all the stakeholders in the company around a larger budget or a larger initiative.

And if

Jake: And can't.

Tim Shea: then they don't renew, right? They don't, they don't get anything new. So we really learned like you gotta make it easy for people to buy this foreign thing that they maybe we've never used before.

Jake: Sure. Yeah.

Tim Shea: And I got two to four weeks to sort of pull a rabbit out of a hat. can't pull a rabbit out of a hat, then maybe it's the wrong fit. And so I've been really sort of like, you know, primed to think about like, how can I take all the things that I've learned over the last 25 years and show them something novel where they're like, Ooh, I would love the larger version of this, please.

Jake: And, and, and it sort of reminds me of, um, a marketing truth is samples. People need to know and have an access point to experience things. And a lot of high ticket items, you don't have that kind of stuff. It's like you're either in or you're not. What ends up being the case [00:21:00] anyway at those high levels is they end up in involving themselves in a long, drawn out sampling process.

You know, so. You could maybe get ahead of that, get it tighter and drilled in just based on one part and what you said. Rabbit out of a hat. This POC, this demo world that we're living in. I don't know if you're really pulling rabbits out of the hat, if every time you are meaning someone, getting to know a new data set, new taxonomies, new ways that these people are thinking how meeting new.

Just data types and learning through that. That's what I've sort of understood as the role of expertise in AI is to be consistently learning every time you're engaging with anything,

Tim Shea: Yeah.

Jake: you're never really sure, you know? I think it's like rabbits outta the hat. Well, forget the rabbit. Forget the hat.

No, save it. You know, save all these things. And that's [00:22:00] where I, this next question is, okay, you saved it all. You got your MD files, you got your AI crime jobs. You know, you got your, but now people don't have time. What, you know, I just don't have time to get into it. Um, there's all this stuff. The, the, the crank is at 11.

You know, I, I never have time to explore data sets. Even without ai. People said, I don't have time to explore my own data. You're like, okay, well then just give it to me or don't even have it. What I want to know how you personally, this is a question I'm gonna start asking more people because I'm really obsessed with time management.

Are you blocking time? And then you must have heard a thousand times in client meetings. We don't have time. So I like, talk to me and ratchet me about personally, how you do it and then what your advice is to people who say [00:23:00] they don't have time. I.

Tim Shea: do they have time to learn about ai? Learn to evolve.

Jake: I would just say not specifically, it doesn't have to be about ai, but that's the main thing that now, you know, in Ninja Cat, people are on board, but then they're like, I still don't have time to explore. And you're like, well, how can we, how can we fix this?

Tim Shea: Uh, I'll give you a kind of two part answer. I

Jake: Yeah.

Tim Shea: one is giving people the carrot. And so there's a, there's a sense with founders that there is a stalemate in their company. They say, listen, we know what our profit margin is. We know what our LTV CAC ratio is. a million vendors like I wake up every morning.

And I got 75 cold emails in my inbox. And, um, and so like, all, all hope is lost. This is what we've got in front of us for the next, you know, 10 years. I'd be like, okay, cool. Uh, could we divide your customers up into three buckets and look at the churn rates on each one? And that's slightly different in, in each bucket.

And can we actually, if we were to reduce the churn rate for your, uh, enterprise [00:24:00] customers by 1%. Can we actually calculate what that number is, you know, that would actually pay for all of the CAC for your medium and small customers over the last six months. And everyone says, oh shit, I would look at that dashboard.

I'm like, right, So like the, there's, there is a light at the end of the tunnel if we were to put in the work, if we were to do these things. And so, you know, how do you find time to be innovative? Um. Look, you should be asking this question to everybody. Yes. This is a, this is an important one. Who, number one, who has time?

Number two, there's so much bad information out there. The last thing I wanna do is have another influencer tell me that like, software engineering is dead, marketing is dead

Jake: right.

Tim Shea: everything's dead.

Jake: The graveyard is so full, Tim.

Tim Shea: Oh, just every, everyone's dying and, and you're like, well, hold on one second. So nobody has adopted this stuff.

How is everything dead and how are all my clients are hiring more software developers? They're all upping their marketing spend. They're all hiring more senior leadership. How is anything [00:25:00] dead? And so, you know, look, uh, the reason that I can come in really confident about data or analytics, about ai, I've really put in the time, anytime someone has said. no one's gonna make movies in Hollywood anymore because this new video model's gonna change everything. The first thing that I do is I, I start playing around with it and I'm like, okay. All the good AI filmmakers, for example, you actually look at their workflows, it's extremely deep. They've taken 10, 20 years of experience.

They put in the time to rework their workflow. use ai. It's the same thing with data and analytics. It's the same thing with ops and finance. These people have to think really deeply about how these tools can help, because using the AI chat bot built into QuickBooks, let's be honest, it is useless. AI chatbot and Slack and Salesforce are useless.

You're like, where do I create, how do I create a new invoice? And it's just like, oh, would you like to read an article about, you know, I'm like, I don't want it. [00:26:00] No.

Jake: But I mean, and, and that's where a lot of the disconnect is, is because I get why y'all aren't having good experiences because you're, you're not using it. Right. You're not even in the right place. You're, but. Well, I love that idea of they'll find time if it's worth looking at.

Tim Shea: That's

Jake: You know, a lot of people, and I've figured that out in certain marketing conversations, because they always want you to do things creatively, which means cheap, but sometimes when they find a good idea, all of a sudden they have money for it, you know?

And you're like. So the money shows up, the views show up when you show up. And maybe that might be the key here is, I love what you said, get dumb in front. Um, uh, don't be afraid to sort of, uh, build people's questioning up from the ground because you might not be the only person that's thinking like that.

Tim Shea: That's right.

Jake: and then this lattice, [00:27:00] this, this infrastructure. Is invisible, but it's built on people more than tools. You said something about leadership. Speak a little bit more that and then, and then well, we'll release you leadership. What does that. A lot of people are like, I'm waiting for leadership to do it. Or leadership, like you said, is lonely and burnt out like, and so it's like bad leaders.

That's not gonna get the conversation going either. What do you think the advice should be to someone who feels like they want to start taking more on with the, the dashboard maintenance and making it better and stronger and insightful and view worthy, but they don't? They feel like they don't have leadership or support.

What, what's, what's the, what's the upward leadership advice? And then is there any thoughts for the leaders out there that are just like, bro, I'm lonely.

Tim Shea: I mean, um, I think that there is [00:28:00] this sentiment that everything just became really easy with ai, right?

Jake: Uh, yeah. Right. And not, that's not what people are feeling, but the sentiment is out there. You're right, Tim.

Tim Shea: Look, look there, there's, um, let's be honest, like AI is one of the most interesting, innovative, disruptive game changers in our adult lifetime, in our adult lifetime.

Jake: sure,

Tim Shea: the only problem with AI is that it doesn't work. It and, and we are being gaslit to think otherwise. And there's a lot of people that are gaslighting you that are, have a lot at stake.

They have a trillion dollar investment in this technology. There's a lot of influencers who are cashing in on creating software. Developers are dead, podcasters are dead. They'll never

Jake: dad.

Tim Shea: they're,

Jake: Oh no.

Tim Shea: gonna be podcasters. And so, and the, the reality is. Is when you hire a 25-year-old in 2010, when you hire a 25-year-old in 2026, it's the same phenomenon. These people need mentorship. They have a lot of energy and enthusiasm and new perspective to bring [00:29:00] to the company, but they need mentorship. They need guardrails, they need leadership. Lead this, uh, uh, of aside from any time maybe in history in my adult lifetime. have, have never needed leadership more. And so I think it's time for people who are in positions of power to speak up and speak the gospel of, of experience, of like, Hey, this 25 years of experience is actually extremely valuable, more valuable than ever because if you were to vibe code a piece of enterprise software, I mean, best of luck to you. Best of luck.

Jake: Right. You go, but, and that's the thing, like AI doesn't work point, but unless you work, you have to work then it works. Like in that survey that, that we just did, the one thing I found is AI maturity is a reflection of organizational maturity.

Tim Shea: Sure a hundred percent.

Jake: That's where it comes from. The, the good teams are getting good results, the siloed teams suffering under that.

But I really loved what you said about leadership. [00:30:00] What, what, what, what? What's the thought to those people who feel like they don't have a leader? When you're saying, how do people grab their own leadership boot straps?

Tim Shea: How do people come up in a big organization? How do they show that they, how do they upskill? How do they figure out like. What the route is on the top of the mountain.

Jake: I guess it's sort of like you're playing this game and I, I agree with you. It's like the coaches, the referees are almost not here, you know, so the players are making the game. How, how do you, how do you feel like, oh, well you can't tell me what to do. I think that's a lot of things that are stopping, like, oh, you're a ref now.

Oh, you're the coach. We're all players, bro. So what, what do you think is that, like, do you feel hubris when you're like, I'm a leader. You know it there, there's some kind of animosity there.

Tim Shea: I think, uh, so a big, uh, big basketball, uh, fan. Um, I

Jake: Love it.

Tim Shea: lot of street ball when I was in like junior high school. You go out

Jake: [00:31:00] Pick it up.

Tim Shea: I'm six, I'm six foot three. I'm doing the

Jake: Yeah, Tim.

Tim Shea: And, um, you know, that's super fun and all. But there was this great analogy about Michael Jordan used to walk around the parquet floors before the game, and he would like, kind of put his foot on every board. And he, he had a feeling that like he knew every nail on the floor and all the other, you know, all the, uh, away games, right? And so when he would get on the court, he'd be like, if I take the mid-range jumper over here, if I do a hard drive to the left, it's gonna be like this. is a feeling that you have to know every nail in the floor. And if you don't, uh, you know, you're just playing street ball. You're doing the half court lob, you're doing the AlleyOOP, and you, you're shooting 20% from, from, uh, from three, and, uh, and, and you're losing every game. And so I think that's a, a, you know, putting in the work. it's such an unglamorous story of the guy that wakes up every day and like works super hard and busts his butt.

And in 30 years he's, he's, oh my, he built this amazing company and there's all these haters and posers on the [00:32:00] outside being like, oh, you should do it like this. You should do it like that. And I'm like, you put in 30 years and you know, it will, you know, it will, it will bear fruit for you.

Jake: Oh my gosh, I love it. So, uh, so big shout outs to expertise. Building that respect for leadership. Um, respect for intelligence, being on a varying scale and not being afraid of that, but getting these dashboards connected to good data, sensible things, good action. I can't believe it, man. People want to hang out with you.

They wanna learn more. How can they connect, um, with you online?

Tim Shea: Uh, I would, I appreciate that. Um, so check out latticework insights.com. Uh, you can check me out on LinkedIn. My name's Tim Shea, uh, founder and CEO of Latticework Insights. Uh, love to be collaborative. Uh, love when people jump with the comments section and ask questions, good, bad, or otherwise. And, um, love to engage, love to talk to young folks to hear what their experience is coming up in the game. It's very different than my experience. Um, so yeah, uh, absolutely reach out and, uh, would love to chat [00:33:00] more.

Jake: I'm all right. I'm not gonna let you go until we play a game called cheese or chocolate, where I ask you two questions and you have to choose one option. Are you ready?

Tim Shea: I'm ready.

Jake: Cheese or chocolate?

Tim Shea: Chocolate.

Jake: Oh, you hesitated, Tim. Talk to me.

Tim Shea: so many good cheeses out there, right? Like there's a whole wide, a range of them. Some of 'em are stinky and gross. Some of them are kind of lame and vanilla. Uh, but man, every now you go to one of those little wine tasting events and they throw a little cheese at you and you're like, that's a fricking epic cheese.

But come on, man. Chocolate is so good. Uh, I would do like a, um, a Twix bar or a Snickers bar, or a Linor chocolate.

Jake: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And then like Milka, you go to Europe and they're just on some whole other game. Okay, we now see we could have another podcast.

Tim Shea: Fair

Jake: Stop. All right. Lava Lamp or black light.

Tim Shea: I, I'm, I'm channeling my, like, college days where everyone had like the Jimi Hendrix, uh, poster on the wall and it

Jake: Oh, I know that one.

Tim Shea: gonna go [00:34:00] blacklight on that one. It's more versatile than the lava lamp.

Jake: Yeah. And you can mess around with the posters. Oh, man, that's it. Okay. Not that there was a right answer, but, uh, sunset or sunrise,

Tim Shea: Uh, sunset. If I never see a sunrise, I have two young kids. If I never see another sunrise in my life, I'll be a happy guy.

Jake: it's like, we don't have a choice. I'm up. I'm up before that motherfucker.

Tim Shea: You have kids as well, or,

Jake: yeah. I mean, and now I, but well, I mean, it is what it is, but I, I wake up before alarms now, like I'm, I miss these days. Okay. You're right. Sunset. You can enjoy it. Uh, Aristotle or Aerosmith?

Tim Shea: You know, Aristotle never wrote any of his own stuff, right? 'cause it was like Socrates

Jake: shit.

Tim Shea: him,

Jake: shit.

Tim Shea: and so all the Socrates stuff, and then Plato came after him. So I don't really know what he said. Other than a secondhand account, and so I'm gonna go with Aerosmith, [00:35:00] especially the old school.

Loving an elevator is not too bad, but like the old school Aerosmith I'm down with, I grew up in Boston too, so

Jake: Come on. So you get it, but you're so right. Aristotle's just like what? He's like a cover band. Oh God. He's rolling around in his little Grecian column right now. He is like all these motherfuckers. Anyway. Okay, uh, two more Garfield or Snoopy.

Tim Shea: Garfield was always rocking the lasagna. Uh,

Jake: I.

Tim Shea: I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to Snoopy. Snoopy's got like real aura. Uh, he's got real game. The whole cast of character is a bit the, the, the Snoopy universe I can really buy into.

Jake: The Snoopy universe is and, and it's sort of like Mums the word. He's not saying a bunch Garfield's giving it away, you know? That's fair, fair, fair, fair. I love it. Okay, and finally, Ooh, [00:36:00] wow. Robert De Niro or Al Pacino.

Tim Shea: come on. What do you, what do you, you know, heat, like, let's say heat is one of the best movies of all time,

Jake: They gave it to us. They knew what we wanted. That was our Reese's Peanut butter cup moment.

Tim Shea: Like, we're gonna pit 'em against each other. And, and, uh, oh man, I'm blanking. I'm all my, my film nerd credentials are going away.

Jake: Well, Michael Mann, Val Kilmer, what do you need?

Tim Shea: De Niro De Niro kills Pacino. No. Pacino kills De Niro in the la in the scene with the airplane.

The, at the

Jake: Oh no. Oh, wait, no. Uh, wait, who's the cop? No. Uh, Pacino Kills De Niro. 'cause he's,

Tim Shea: good guys win. The cop wins. Or maybe that's the

Jake: we all remember that. Shoot. I,

Tim Shea: and who's bad.

Jake: okay. No, that's so, but okay. But you didn't choose one.

Tim Shea: I am gonna go with Pacino. You know, g Glen Garry Glen Ross is probably one of my favorite movies. He plays an amazing sales guy in Glen Garry, Glen Ross, and meet the Fs. I felt like De Niro took a turn for the worst. I just lost all my, I lost all my credibility right there. I [00:37:00] meet the

Jake: Oh,

Tim Shea: not my, my thing.

And I De Niro lost.

Jake: Tim's saying the real stuff here. He is gonna tell you the truth. Listen to Tim. Um, man, I think you're right, but, uh, yeah, that, that's a contentious one. Um.

Tim Shea: Fair enough.

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